LOD 102 - Batman: The Dark Knight Returns Issue 1

[Johnny M]

Long overdue

John and Russ are joined by returning Dude Adam Reed to discuss Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. So, we go back to our roots to examine this classic issue by issue. Miller's take on a Batman that comes out of retirement after 10 years began the grim and gritty trend in comics.

Get it here:

[JordanFromJersey]

Finally, Black Panther!!

[Adam]

YES!! Can't wait!!

[The Crippled Avenger]

BOOM!

[Johnny M]

[Russ-L]

John and Russ are joined by returning Dude Adam Reed to discuss Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. So, we go back to our roots to examine this classic issue by issue. Miller's take on a Batman that comes out of retirement after 10 years began the grim and gritty trend in comics.

Get it here:

[DarkKnightJared]

Okay, I haven't listened to this yet, but I'm PSYCHED. DKR's the book that got me into comics, and I can't wait to hear this.

[Dezreavey]

Looking forward to listening, I will have to see if I can pick this up from the Library......

[80sjunkie]

I remember when the series came out. It was impossible to find the issues on the rack at a Waldenbooks, which was my main source for comics at that time. Eventually I read the trade and loved it. During those few years in the 80s, it seemed ALL about Frank Miller. The 80's were all sleek, glossy and colorful, so this book was quite a shock to read compared to other comics and the prevailing culture at the time. For some reason, it had a very underground feel for me, almost like something I shouldn't be reading.

I knew I was lukewarm about Inception, and Brad shared his opinion online. Didn't know Frank or Bill shared a similar opinion that it was worth watching, but that we would probably not be buying the DVD. Given some of the general feedback I looked at after seeing the movie, I really thought Frank or Bill would be raving about it, so I prepared to be a somewhat dissenting voice to go with Brad.

[Dafixershideout]

I have many disagreements about how geeks today see the era of the Dark Knight and Watchmen. I completely disagree that these things caused the "Grim and Gritty" era of comics - I don't subscribe to the notion. Comics did not become "grim and gritty" they were doing that long before Dark Knight and Watchmen. Look at "Death of Captain Marvel" look at Iron Man's "Demon in a Bottle." The Elementals by Comico was "grim and gritty" long before there was a Watchmen or Dark Knight. Electra was killed by Bullseye long before Dark Knight. Alan Moore's Miracleman was dark from the start and that comic was coming out in the early 1980's. And the majority of comics during the so-called "Grim and Gritty" era were far more happy-happy-joy-joy then any of the clones of Watchmen and Dark Knight.

What Dark Knight, Watchmen (and Swamp Thing, Sandman, Miracleman and a few others) did was mature comics - and let's face it unless comics grew up they would have died faster then the 1990's boom almost killed them. Everything must grow at some point, comics are no different. Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Dave Michelline, Neal Geiman, Grant Morrison and the like ushered in the maturity. Thank God, because until then comics were, for the most part, becoming stagnant and typical. Especially DC comics.

Another thing Dark Knight ushered in was the first time mainstream media recognized a major comic story. Frank Miller announced the Dark Knight Returns almost a year before it came out and it was covered by almost every 10 O'Clock and 11 O'Clock news broadcast. Dark Knight may have been the first series that people outside of the FanNation came and bought a comic with rapt interest.

It drives me nuts when geeks dismiss these books calling them "Over rated" because that's like dismissing Action Comic #1, or Lee, Ditco and Kirby. There are major milestones in comics, and while they might not be ones favorite (for instance I have never been a Kirby fan) one should not discount these milestones especially is one is going to let ones geek flag fly. The Dark Knight is a huge milestone because it changed the way every single writer and artist represented Batman, something that had not happened for years.

As to your question of how much of Dark Knight's writing and art are "firsts" - take if from someone who lived it - yes. The whole thing was a first (including battles between Batman and Superman.) Every writer and artist (old and new) saw Dark Knight Returns and never looked back again. I have an interview with Frank Miller in a fanzine called "Amazing Heroes" where years later he's having a great laugh at how every single "origin" panels or pages done in any Batman story uses the pearls and the close-ups of the gun firing he came up with in Dark Knight.

What comics like Dark Knight proves is that no matter how old you think a character is, there is always something new that can be done with them. We geeks should look upon that lesson and learn every time there's this "comic books are going to die" panic we get into too often.

Peace
Dafixer
(aka Umar)

[Johnny M]

[Darrell]

Ive always been a fan of Batman and it all started with the art styles of Neal Adams that brought me to the table and after that Ive loved the different takes on Batman from the Miller grim and gritty to the more methodical detective to the more super hero version thats been on the Justice League fighting aliens like Starro. I can still re read the Dark Knight returns over and over again. I look forward to the book two discussion. I think the only Batman I dont like is the silly Adam west version that is probably why I have the Brave and the Bold cartoon.

[80sjunkie]

The Death of Gwen Stacy and the landmark Green Lantern/Green Arrow stories by Denny O'Neil pre-date some of the examples above. Though these stories are more grim and mature, I don't think any of the stories mentioned took things to the level Dark Knight did. More mature stories before Dark Knight were still firmly grounded in relatable human drama, while Dark Knight took things to a nearly nihilistic level. I can't think of any stories before Dark Knight that did that.

[DarkKnightJared]

On the time-line thing with DKR and Watchmen--if I remember right, the first two issues came out just before Watchmen did, and between natural delays and actually reading the book, Miller changed up aspects of the scripts and put in the whole aspect of the superheroes being forced to retire and live in secrecy. This explains some of the slight inconsistencies, like Dr. Wolper wearing a Superman shirt in the first half of the series, but the reporter getting flack for even hinting at him in the second half.

Nice catch on the first page race in comparison to IM2.

As for the political stuff with Wolper, it should also be mentioned that he pulls shots at all sides in this book--while Wolper exemplifies the concept of the more left-leaning idea that outside forces are to blame for everything, pushed so much to an extreme that it eliminates the concept of personal responsibility, it can also be argued that the biggest villain in this book is Ronald Reagan. Miller has his right-leanings, but it is a bit more to the center.

I never got the concept that Bruce was supposed to be fat in DKR or DKSA--I think it's just that Miller draws him to be very larger than life in physicality.

On the "bat crashing through the window" thing--in the past it was flying through an open window, but the bat's been there since the first origin in '40.

On "has he always been this rough according to Miller" thing--I think so up to a certain point. Between conversations in DKR and than earlier in this time line in All-Star, the idea is that the other heroes think he's too rough and makes the rest of them look bad. However, I think between the corruption and the years he's spent in exile, he's definitely even rougher than before.

There isn't a second trade of All-Star, because only one other issue has been out since that trade, but I assume that it will be collected with the eventual trade of the upcoming Dark Knight: Boy Wonder.

On what Harvey sees in the mirror--I saw it more that the side that was traditonally Harvey is scarred and mutilated, and the side that was Two-Face is a skull, saying that Two-Face is dead, but Harvey is so psychologically scarred that he's just as twisted as the Two-Face persona.

Great episode, guys.

[Chris Beckett]

[80sjunkie]

Good point with regards to the coloring. I never noticed such things before, but I definitely noticed in one issue in the series where the new Robin is hugging a de-costumed Batman. The dude looks like he's made of stone, and I knew this coloring decision was quite purposeful in a way I had not seen before. Lots of "a-ha" moments for me too.

I think I picked it up because I kept seeing ads for first-pressings selling for $30. Made me wonder WTF is this? Of course the art immediately pulled me in.

[Russ-L]

Great points all. Dafixer's comment made me really think about the term "grim and gritty" and I think mature as you said is a much more accurate portrayal. I also think DKR gets it's moniker because it was the first real mainstream character, to my knowledge, that used language and nudity in the book. That's what always struck me so hard reading this book back in the day.

Chris, you made me think of 400. I bought that issue off the rack and loved it. The foreword by Stephen King I thought was really cool. It has some parallels to what they did in Knightfall with the escape from Arkham. It's probably my favorite anniversary issue.

[yodajones]

[Chris Beckett]

[Chris Beckett]